Curse

_Nihilist_ · Nov 22, 2008, 04:00 AM // 04:00

SY can be run by either an Imbagon or a Godmode Warrior.

Pro for the Imba: SY! covers all of the party
Con for the Imba: mobs will gun for him, pulling them into the party (mostly mitigated by the pro)

Pro for the Godmode: the Warrior becomes the squishy of the party, so the mobs will tend to target it
Con for the Godmode: if the Warrior doesn't attract the aggro, some of the mobs might break for the party members that were out of SY! range (mostly mitigated by the fact that many Godmode Warrs carry Brawling Headbutt on their bar, which means a quick KD to any mob that tries to scatter)

-Lotus- · Nov 22, 2008, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Tell me then how crappy energy-based [triple chop] build is better than [asuran scan][eviscerate][executioner's strike][body blow] warrior or how can it compete with MS/DB damage-wise?

I didnt say it could compare to MS/DB. no warrior build can come close to that damage output.
but using AoE attacks certainly deals out plenty more damage than single targets. how is that debatable?

Bobby2 · Nov 22, 2008, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Please enlighten me. What exactly is so great about a WE Scyther?

Lots of yellow numbers on your screen, d'oh

**Marty Silverblade** · Nov 22, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Lots of yellow numbers on your screen, d'oh

Triple-digit yellow numbers, that makes it even better.

Bobby2 · Nov 22, 2008, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

Triple-digit yellow numbers, that makes it even better.

Rivalling my Sin.

Super Igor · Nov 22, 2008, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

I didnt say it could compare to MS/DB. no warrior build can come close to that damage output.
but using AoE attacks certainly deals out plenty more damage than single targets. how is that debatable?

Contrary to what you might think MS/DB is loved primerely for the huge single target damage output, this means it can kill off important monsters and those who somehow didnt get pinned to the ground by earth shaker real fast. It also deals considerable aoe damage which is a big + to the killing ability.

Spiking single targets is not bad in pve if you can spike them again very fast, please rememmber discordway. [Eviscerate] warrior does exactly that, with orders and fgj! it can charge its powerful combo really really fast lamost like a sin and it will usually be enough to destroy the target, additionally it uses a hex followed by deepwound ideal to be used with discord heroes, [triple chop] can do nothing of it. Even if a warrior wants to deal aoe damage it would be [warriors endurance] scythe all the way dealing massive damage on hard mode per scythe hit.

However you argue [triple chop] with its energy cost and long recharge is a really poor skill to use in pve. For the job of hitting every foe around you even non-elite (!) [crude swing] and [whirlwind attack] completely outshine it.

-Lotus- · Nov 22, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

idiocy

you are comparing the skill Triple chop to an Evis Build.

of course the build does more than a single skill... try looking at a triple chop build. There is a reason Evis is a PvP-elite.

Super Igor · Nov 22, 2008, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

you are comparing the skill Triple chop to an Evis Build.

of course the build does more than a single skill... try looking at a triple chop build. There is a reason Evis is a PvP-elite.

I'm comparing triple chop to a skill combo, not a build, but even if I compare those builds evis still wins, stop fishing arguments out of your ass, triple chop is weak, people dont use it for a reason.

And there is no reason why evis is pvp-only elite, because its not.

-Lotus- · Nov 22, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

thank god there is an ignore list on guru eh?

Chthon · Nov 22, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

350 Damage AoE Crits in NM, they look wonderful.

If that's all it does, it sounds like crap. Scythesins are pretty mediocre, and that's with some added crit-chance skills to somewhat compensate for the effect of monster level going way up. Your warrior doesn't even have that. Unless the build has something else going for it, it sounds like, once monster levels go up and crit levels go down, you just stand around doing trivial armor-sensitive auto-attack damage with 12 weapon mastery.

The Meth · Nov 22, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If that's all it does, it sounds like crap. Scythesins are pretty mediocre, and that's with some added crit-chance skills to somewhat compensate for the effect of monster level going way up.

I am 99% certain that critical chance isn't reduced on above level 20 enemies. If it was my sin would never be getting any energy at all against level 28s, yet as a scythe sin I get around 50-70% critical hits in any given battle and pretty much can't be using skills fast enough. If you have any physical build that can deal 100-150 AoE damage per hit along ontop of deep wound on every enemy with permanent 33% IAS please tell me what it is. Now if you want to compare the utility of a scythe sin against an SY spammer, then yeah the scythe sin is weaker. But going by pure damage its winning out.

Saraneth · Nov 23, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

I am 99% certain that critical chance isn't reduced on above level 20 enemies. If it was my sin would never be getting any energy at all against level 28s, yet as a scythe sin I get around 50-70% critical hits in any given battle and pretty much can't be using skills fast enough.

The chance of scoring a critical hit depends on the target's level compared to the attacker's level. For martial weapons, the attacker's rank in the weapon's attribute is also a significant factor.
- http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Critical_hit

The Meth · Nov 23, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Yes, its been verified that when you are a higher level you get more critical hits on lower levels. Noone has shown that lower levels get less criticals when attacking higher levels however. Go attack something thats level 12 with your level 20. You will pretty much critical every single hit. If that worked in reverse you would almost never critical against level 28's. Obviously this doesn't happen. In any case my sin criticals most of the time using a scythe sin build with most enemies dieing in 4 strikes or less, unaided by allies.

Super Igor · Nov 23, 2008, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

thank god there is an ignore list on guru eh?

What makes you think I care about you, ego much?

Bobby2 · Nov 23, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If that's all it does, it sounds like crap. Scythesins are pretty mediocre, and that's with some added crit-chance skills to somewhat compensate for the effect of monster level going way up. Your warrior doesn't even have that. Unless the build has something else going for it, it sounds like, once monster levels go up and crit levels go down, you just stand around doing trivial armor-sensitive auto-attack damage with 12 weapon mastery.

Crits don't matter when you're able to throw out Scything [power attack]s and [protector's strike]s on recharge

Chthon · Nov 23, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

I am 99% certain that critical chance isn't reduced on above level 20 enemies. If it was my sin would never be getting any energy at all against level 28s, yet as a scythe sin I get around 50-70% critical hits in any given battle and pretty much can't be using skills fast enough. If you have any physical build that can deal 100-150 AoE damage per hit along ontop of deep wound on every enemy with permanent 33% IAS please tell me what it is. Now if you want to compare the utility of a scythe sin against an SY spammer, then yeah the scythe sin is weaker. But going by pure damage its winning out.

Floating around somewhere you can find the formula, with the statistic testing to back it up, modeling the relationship between base crit chance, attacker lever, defender level, and weapon mastery. The effect level difference is linear.

Now, it is my anecdotal, totally unsupported by statistical evidence, impression that the +crit chance bonuses for crit strikes and skills like critical eye are applied AFTER that base crit chance formula, and aren't effected by level difference or weapon mastery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Crits don't matter when you're able to throw out Scything [power attack]s and [protector's strike]s on recharge

That would indeed be something more and better than just trying to score armor-sensitive crits against high-level monsters. Spamming power attack on recharge with high strength does sound pretty spiffy. Why did you say so in the first place?

The Meth · Nov 23, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

I've tried W/D scythe builds. They are pretty good and do a lot of damage, but I prefer the A/D's. My reason being that they have Wounding Strike, which is effectively a +100 damage skill with bleeding, along with teleports and more crits and permanent +33% IAS. W/D's might give you a better sustained DPS on the master of damage since wounding strike is useless after the target gets deep wounded, but for regular fights where that isn't an issue A/D's pull ahead when their first attack on any enemy is taking 250+ health off. I think you guys overestimate enemy armor a bit. Even in HM just about every caster is going to have a max armor of 70-80, while everything but warrior's aren't going to have more then 90-100ish.

I'm going to do some direct testing of the difference regarding levels and critical, will report later. The only information regarding critical hits I know of are at http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_hit and http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damag...#Critical_Hits, which are both based on lots and lots of testing, but neither really talks about level difference affect other then saying that fighting lower levels = lots of criticals.

EDIT: Ok, I tested outside Maatu Keep. In HM, with a sin holding a scythe with 12 in scythe mastery and 4 in critical strikes (so I can more easily verify that the attack criticaled, showing +1 energy bonus), against a level 26 Dragon Moss, I measured 106 Critical Hits out of 500 attacks. That gives a critical rate of 21.2%. Exact figures of what it should be don't exist, on the guildwiki page itself it simultaneously lists that 12 weapon mastery should give 15%, 17%, and 19.2% critical hit rates. Keep in mind that I get an extra 4% chance to critical from the critical strike attribute and that the attribute stacks multiplicatively and not additively, so I'm pretty much right in the middle of the numbers guildwiki lists.

I do have another suspicion that I've wanted to test regarding critical hits and since I am doing this now I might as well. I believe there is a confounding variable here that is partially related to level and affecting critical hits. I will post again later when if I gather data to support my hypothesis.

Teutonic Paladin · Nov 23, 2008, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If that's all it does, it sounds like crap. Scythesins are pretty mediocre, and that's with some added crit-chance skills to somewhat compensate for the effect of monster level going way up. Your warrior doesn't even have that. Unless the build has something else going for it, it sounds like, once monster levels go up and crit levels go down, you just stand around doing trivial armor-sensitive auto-attack damage with 12 weapon mastery.

I didn't answer that question very well, did I?

You have a constant IAS, three 1/2-3/4 activation skills, +54% damage at rank 5, every hit is AoE (awesome without Splinter, broken with it), optional Deep Wound, "Save Yourselves!", Strength (which is actually useful contrary to popular belief) and anything else you feel like you want. With the high frequency of attacks, Adrenaline is easy to gain (SY!) and energy is abundant (any other PvE skill). Because of the fast activation of the skills, it's easy to spike out PvE monks (rather than pressuring them down) even when they are in large groups.

Obviously, you lack the constant KD of Earthshaker or DSlash, but Brawling Headbutt is quickly charged and useful if you want it. Endurance Scythe is my favorite Warrior build, and it is very effective. It easily outdamages any other Warrior build but does lack frequent KDs in most variations.

The Meth · Nov 24, 2008, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Alright, this may lead a bit offtopic, but I messed around testing critical hit rates, and I am almost certain now that the target's armor influences the critical hit rate somehow.

I tested against the the 60 armor and 100 armor dummies in the Isle of the Nameless, using the same setup as before. I killed each dummy 35 times. This gave me 443 test hits on the 60 armor dummy and 868 test hits on the 100 armor dummy. My critical % rate on each dummy was 24.2% for the 60 armor dummy and 20.6% for the 100 armor dummy. Not a huge difference, but given the sample size its definitely a statistically significant difference. If I am doing my statistical analysis correctly (and chances are I'm not, since I haven't checked how its done and am just using what my calculator spits out) the P-value of the two samples being the same is .0754, which means its highly unlikely that my result was due to pure chance.

Attached are the exact results of my little experiment.